WEBVTT

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Okay, thank you. I'm just going to quickly share my screen.

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Okay, so you should be able to see that. Next, we have a panel. So again, thank you so much again. That was a really great talk.

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And it actually sparked some questions that I think we'll be able to continue the discussion on in this next panel. So I've shared a slide that has a QR link or QR code and a link to be able to submit questions to our panellists. So please do submit them there so that when we take questions from the audience, we have them all in one centralized place.

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So we're going to be discussing the, well, the title of the panel is Charting the Part Path Ahead. So Insights from Global Physics Laboratories. And we're very pleased to welcome Dave Newbold from STFC, Sorry, I've… lost my screen. Denise Volker from Daisy and Thomas Blanche from

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Sorry, from Triumph. And being distracted by my Zoom playing up right now. Sorry, apologies for that.

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So I think what we'll do is we'll do a quick introduction from each of the speakers and I'll go in order of my screen. So Denise, if you wouldn't mind kicking off with your, if you don't mind, I don't want to shock you.

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But if you don't mind kicking off with your introduction. A bit about yourself and your daisy, that would be wonderful.

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Yes. So I'm so Sharing my screen.

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Yes.

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Can you see it? Very good. Good. So my name is Denise Ferker. I'm not even a physicist.

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So don't blame me. I'm a political scientist and I'm a campaigner by heart.

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So I worked for global environmental NGOs all my life before I joined DZ six years ago.

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So I come from a kind of different direction, but I always liked physics and I'm really happy to work at Daisy with all these cool great scientists.

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And I'm always being asked, why would I go to the the enemy now or such a different path when environmental NGOs. And I don't see it very differently because you scientists are also so passionate about your field and your

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Things and if you talk about it, it sometimes is so motivating and inspiring and this is exactly the same with the campaigners in the NGO world. They also never stop and each Sunday they read another book and another thing. So this is, I really feel very welcome in the physics field.

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So Daisy is a big science lab in Germany, in Hamburg. Sorry for my voice, it's going up and down today, but I have some tea with me, so I hope I will.

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So what if the next two hours? So Daisy is doing all kinds of accelerators. So we are uh we used to have a collateral We are very much engaged in many of the LHC experiments.

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We also have a field in astroparticle physics And we also run a light source or free light sources actually as user facilities.

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So this is for me very interesting because I can combine your community with the light source community and the astro particle community And it's really interesting because it's really a good drive forward currently.

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So at DZ, we established a staff unit for sustainability That's my unit. I have a bunch of physicists with me. I have a bunch of electoral engineers with me.

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To really look at everything that Daisy is doing. And here are just a few examples. Here's the link to our to our sustainability report.

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We will have a new one later this year. We're currently working on it.

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There you can read all kinds of stuff, what we did with greening of buildings.

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We recycled a whole bunch of heavy concrete during corona because no one was there. We were able to crush it.

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Because it's very loud and it's very loud makes a lot of what is the english word if if stuff is vibrant it makes a lot of vibrations Just two examples to show you the whole range we're working on.

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Small things like paper We're not sending out all the news for the campus anymore in paper.

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We do it only in email. And also collected to the groups and only all the black on the news I don't mean, I miss english words sorry And the things you have on the floor where you put your poster on so everybody sees it

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So we saved, I mean, it's really, it's not a lot, but 600 kilos of wood It's not a lot, but it still is something. And then we have bigger projects like our waste heat recovery from our gryogenic We heat half the campus with that.

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And we make it better each year. So this is the range we work we work in.

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What is special, and this is why I wanted to come here today, because we are not a normal company. We're not industry. We are not a household.

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Large-scale resource infrastructures are very, very special. We heard that before.

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That we have all these extraordinary technologies required, which you cannot buy in a shop. We need to develop everything ourselves.

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So we need to collaborate on this and make it more innovative.

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We have extensive building and construction projects i mean Also, we have high resource consumption during operation. Of course, electricity, but also chemicals and other materials.

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Not so much in particle physics, but in the user facilities and the light sources.

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The chemicals for the experiment is quite a huge impact. We are not mobile yet the things are really big So we really need to encourage mail-in and employee supported experiments, remote operation And so on and so forth. And of course, the question of data

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We handle very big data. So we need to develop greener it.

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Flexible run of data centers. We have a new project in DC on that and also the data management in general.

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And my personal dream as a campaigner is that I think maybe I think maybe a little bit like one third of the way we've done so far it's Everybody's doing whatever he's doing and then they come to us And say, oh, and now let's make it sustainable.

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But our goal has to be that everything is being developed, designed and implemented in the most sustainable way.

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And this is this culture thing we really need to encourage. And that's why I'm so thankful that you have all these conferences like this because this is stirring this.

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So that's from me. Sorry, too long? Too long?

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That was perfect. Thanks very much. Thanks for the introduction. Okay, so next, perhaps Dave, would you be willing to share your slides and give us a quick introduction?

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Yep, hello. Let me try to do this. Do you hear me?

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Hello. Yep, you're very clear and I can see your slides. Perfect.

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Good. Okay. All right. So for those who don't know me, I'm Dave Newbold So apart from being Hannah's boss kind of, I'm also the executive director for national laboratories at SDFC. So SDFC is the UK funding agency, but we also run the UK National Labs, which is my part of it. Our mission is to discover the secrets of the universe.

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That mission is the same as everybody in the room, so I won't go on about that too much. Just to say all of the kind of facilities you've ever heard of.

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Which is to say accelerators, lasers, light sources, big computing. We've got one each of those.

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And that means we've got every single problem possible. And the problems are of a different nature depending on the size and scale of those different facilities. So we have got a really, really complex problem.

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Just to show you the numbers. We also spend about a third of our budget investing in other people's facilities.

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So not only have we got the problem of maintaining acceptable environmental impact from what we do we also have to look out for what CERN does, what Fermilab does, and many, many other things about 10 different things around the world.

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So this is very complex. And what we've attempted to do over the last two years is take, as Denise was describing, all of the goodwill, all of the engagement, all of the recognition that this is important and try and distill it down into an actual strategy and action plan.

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The reason for that is because without such written documents, you don't get any money. And the way I have come to see this is as a technical problem and as a money problem. It's another thing we have to do for money involving technology. And if you put it like that, it seems a little bit less scary.

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So here's the strategy on a slide, and I will keep the time. So you can see that there are two sides to this. This is everything we're going to do. I won't read through the vision and so on.

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But you can see there are some organizational things that we have to do in order to get this on the road. So our target within our parent organization is to be net zero by 2040.

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Now, as you're probably aware, the UK government, perhaps inspired by transatlantic relationships, is starting to backpedal a bit on the overall national target for net zero.

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But we are not. We are sticking to 2040. We are the part of the UK national infrastructure that's going to find that hardest. So this is super ambitious as far as we're concerned. So getting towards that organizationally requires us to do the things in green. Certainly embedding it into our decision making.

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So judging what we do on the basis of sustainability, not just of scientific excellence and cost.

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Measuring and monitoring everything, both in the shorts and long term Leading by example, nationally and internationally, and we're not there yet, but we want to be. And of course, that culture and behaviour change piece But it also actually affects some practical things on the ground.

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And as you can see, that's both delivery and operations. But it's also for us about steering our scientific research potential away from perhaps some of the fundamental science things we were doing at one point and towards environmental sustainability research in its own right. And that is really the new thing. So actually being proactive about tackling this, not just about turning down the knob.

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On the things we do. So this is the grand plan fresh out of the door. You can't have a printed copy because as Denise says, that's very old thinking, but the link will be available to you on an updated version of these slides.

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What's my assessment of where we are? Well, this is sort of the journey we're on, I would say. These are the steps. So do we accept the ownership of this problem? And I think that was the fight of 2020 and 2021.

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I think we do accept the ownership of the problem on a national basis and to some extent international. So that's good. We own the issue.

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Are our staff engaged? Are our customers engaged? Are our scientific communities engaged? Absolutely. I think the one battle we have definitely won is making people understand this is real, this is important, and that the things that we decide to do do have a measurable effects on outcomes. So that's good

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Building sustainability into our planning and strategy. Well, you've seen that we've started that. The slightly surprised emoji against that is because when you start to really delve into the detail, you suddenly find that the impacts are not going to be small. So if you are serious.

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About building sustainability into your decision making, you're going to make different decisions, not just the same decisions, but at a different scale.

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And I think one needs to reflect on that when thinking about the international future of particle physics.

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Have we understood our impacts in detail? No. It turns out that actually our impact is boils down to one thing, which is electricity consumption.

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And that comes down to two things, which is computing and running the light source and neutron source. Have we understood in detail which jobs in our computer systems cause the emissions? No, we have not yet. Have we understood in detail which instruments use the power? Yes, we kind of have. So we're getting there.

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And then, of course, the serious business of reduction and stopping doing things comes. And then, of course, the embodiment in for the future.

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So I'd say we're on the road, but a long way to go. What I would say is as an organisation.

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We haven't yet made the first really painful decision not to do something because it is not environmentally sustainable. Yes, we're using less paper Yes, we're using more LED light bulbs. Those are not consequential things. Have we decided not to do a project because it's not environmentally sustainable? We're about to do so. I'm not telling you which one.

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I'll leave it there.

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Wow, thank you. That's quite a cliffhanger to end on. Thanks for that, Dave.

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So next, I'd like to welcome Thomas. Please, would you share a quick introduction?

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Triumph.

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Yes, let me give it a try.

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Here we go.

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Mm-hmm.

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New computer here laptop just broke so i had to change it in figuring out how to use it. Can you hear me well?

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I can hear you well, yes. Not yet.

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Can you see my screen? Oh, okay. Trying again.

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Can you see that now? Fantastic.

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Yes, I can see that now.

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Okay, so just a few words to introduce Triumph. So we are a Canada particle acceptance center And as you can see, we will locate it here in the middle of the Pacific Spirit Park in the forest.

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By the sea on the south of the UBC, the University of British Columbia campus here, right next to the city of Vancouver, which is just outside of that picture on the right over there.

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Mm-hmm. Yep.

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Triumph has found it quite a while ago in 1968 by three local universities. But since we have evolved into a bigger facility.

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And we are now owned and operated by a consortium of 21 universities across the country from coast to coast.

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This beautiful place we are located in is actually the ancestral and uncited territory of the Musqueam people.

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And Triumph, just to give you another minute, is the home of about 600 staff.

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And students all together working here. So very quick overview of our facility. So we have many different type of accelerators.

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All connected together, cyclotron Linux you know very briefly And all of that connected, interconnected with over one kilometer of beam light, this railway network connecting the different accessories and facility.

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Supporting a very diverse science program but what's more relevant here to this discussion is The oldest part of the campus is relatively new over the past decade. We've digged a tunnel build new buildings, new accelerators. So moved a lot of dirt, used a lot of concrete

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And that's where we are now. And at the present, we are consuming about 60 gigawatt hour of electricity per year.

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And that's a big number It's the… It's about the consumption of 1800 households in British Columbia and 1800 is the last number. We know that as physicists because it's the mass ratio between the mass of the proton and the mass of the electron. So it's a large number. And a couple of years back, so we are really at the stage of trying to gather data and figure out where we are in terms of carbon footprint.

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Carbon footprint isn't everything in terms of environmental footprint, but let's just focus on that for a minute.

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So we tried to estimate what is Triumph's carbon footprint. And did some… some kind of back of the envelope estimates. You can look at these presentations for more details And the first surprise we got is that actually this relatively large electrical consumption

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For a campus of that size.

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Reflects into a relatively small carbon footprint. That comes from the fact that electricity in BC is very highly decarbonized. It's mostly coming from hydropower. So hydropower has environmental impacts.

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Building big dams and all but in terms of carbon emissions, very, very low carbon emissions so So you see the carbon footprint coming from electricity consumption is on the same order of magnitude than what comes from the heating of our buildings with a fossil gas. So this is a much lower power.

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But it's a comparable CO2 footprint. And it's also comparable with with the consumption coming from people commuting to work, most of us doing it by cars, unfortunately.

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But the surprise when we did the study, well, that was a surprise for me at the moment, but it's probably not a surprise for you At the time, I mean, oops, is that air travel was the largest single contributor to Triumph's

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Carbon footprint. So that's what I have to share with you at the moment in an introduction. I'll stop there.

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And we can talk.

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Yeah, two years ago, it was a surprise. I wasn't expecting to see that.

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Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, that is initially when you look at those numbers, it's quite a surprising um you wouldn't expect it to be the largest impact but then Surprisingly it really surprisingly Yes, exactly.

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All right. So yeah, thank you to everyone for your introductions. So what we'll do is we'll move on to um some first pre-organized questions, and I'll ask those, but if any questions come to your mind to the audience, please do submit them to that Slido link that I've posted in the chat and then we will

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We were asked that to our panelists. So for the first question, some of you did touch on it in your introduction.

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So how do you foster a sustainability conscious culture among your researchers, engineers, technical staff within your institution?

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I'll let you each volunteer, otherwise I'll choose one of you to go first. Yeah, Denise?

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Please go ahead.

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And because I have a good line for that. I drink coffee.

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That's my job. If someone asks me what my job description is, I say, I'm a professional coffee drinker.

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Because yeah because you need to get to the people. You need to discuss with them. And I can only work with my electricians to develop more efficient things if they get the feeling that I understand them and I'm not coming with theoretical concepts.

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Push them over them. It's not working. Me and my team We have good coffee maker. We have a milk foamer. We have cookies.

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And we have a nice thing where we can sit. And so this is really one of the things that you need to work together.

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Yeah. And we do not stop. As I said, we talk with the electricians, we talk with the engineers, we talk with the directors.

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In the very same way. So this is something and then of course it's these Motivate, discuss, teach.

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Inspire things like that, things we do here and and over the years that's that's what we And I think in Daisy we were quite successful, but it took some years.

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And we're not at the very end. And I know, Dave, that you have Emma for this behavioral change thing. So how far have you come?

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Yeah, we do. We have the inimitable Emma Wright, who's our behavioral change manager and she has changed behaviours. And I think she also drinks a lot of coffee, but we have also done some other things.

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I mean, in our lab. As with other big labs in Europe, most people are technologists of some sort. They're scientists, they're engineers, they're technicians, they're project managers for such projects. They're computing specialists.

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And so the way we have found to get this message across is to present it effectively as a numerical, practical engineering problem. And that means measuring first and assessing and then devising a plan. I think what people sometimes are slightly allergic to is too much evangelism. We all get it.

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But actually, do we? Because as somebody said earlier, when you start to look at the numbers, you get some surprises.

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One of the things that I think was most impactful in our organization is where we commissioned Arup to do a really bottom-up study of something we were about to build. We thought we knew where the carbon emissions were coming from in that project. It was an accelerator project. It turns out we were completely wrong.

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And actually, when you start to do things in that way as an engineering problem, people start to buy in because they can bring their own practical individual technical expertise to bear on the problem. So that's how we handled it. But for those who are starting on this road.

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Evangelism first measurement and then you get people in and it is it is a long road. It took us maybe three to four years.

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Oh, yes, that's quite a significant amount of time to have to invest and get things really going within your institution.

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Oh, sorry.

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And that's really, I'm sorry, but that's really a very positive aspect here. This is not the industry yeah you get people And the scientists, they want to make the things as as good as possible yeah and they want to make it perfect and it's and they have all these motivation and

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And inspiration for their work. So it's for me, it's pretty easy to work with them. There is, of course, some resistance.

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And we've done that that way. And always this question It's the machine afterwards still running stable?

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Or not, you'll get that a lot. But it's really the people are not, yeah, as Dave said, I don't need to explain climate change.

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Everybody knows it. And no one would say it's not there You can really work with the people and it's, as Dave said, it's really it's going yeah it's it's much more an issue these days

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Yes, definitely. Thomas, did you have an answer to go with that?

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Yeah, I was trying to think about the time scale we have uh we we're trying to achieve a change so we there isn't a an urgency but um But what we can only really succeed possibly, it's very hard to change the mind of the people.

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In position of leadership. And Dave is trying to do that. It's difficult. But what we also should really be aiming at is the new generation Try to try to you know grow up and think of those things uh you know uh

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From the start, for them in 10 or 20 years, what we're discussing now is completely obvious. There shouldn't be a point for discussion. So it's really through education of of the coming generation that we can really succeed.

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It takes time and maybe we don't have that much time. So I don't know. I don't have a solution.

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Okay, so if there are no other comments on that, I'll move on to the next question. As a reminder, please do submit your questions to the Slido.

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So the next question is, what are the current challenges in terms of funding that you're facing in implementing sustainable initiatives at your facilities?

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And in addition to that, what is one bold change that you could implement at your lab?

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Were there no funding or technical constraints?

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Yes, please go ahead.

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I can have a go if you want. I mean, at the moment, I would say for us funding is not the issue, but it will be very soon.

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And that comes in two shapes. The first is that we have a lot of legacy infrastructure and particle physics is an old subject starting in the 1950s. A lot of us still have 1950s things and we've been using them.

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If you really want to flush the system of all of that infrastructure in the next 10, 20, 30 years, it's going to cost a huge amount of money. I don't think people have really understood just how much money We were told by our director of estates that it would probably cost 150 million to get things to where they need to be for 2040.

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And I said, that's not so much as I thought. And then she said, that's per year. And I said, for how long? And she said, forever.

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So there you go. That's the bill. The other thing I think which comes into the money question is inevitably.

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Adherence to proper principles for environmental sustainability make for science cost more.

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You're going to have to take more care. You're going to have to use more expensive chemicals, more expensive power supplies and so on and so forth.

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Those things I think, of the easy funding questions. We can squeeze those into budgets, but it does mean pushing down it a little bit. So what we're doing here is the same as anybody else who's got a big thing to sell to the government. We're just releasing information in small components. And because if you talk about the total cost that wants people fall from their chair and then you don't get a conversation.

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Reveal it slowly is my advice. If you want one big change we would make at the lab. I think the big change which is going to happen for us is probably the movement of some things away from our site to a place where we can access direct green energy supplies. Unfortunately, we can't move any synchrotrons, but we can move some computer centers. And that is our thinking at the moment.

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.000
Yes, please go ahead, Denise.

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:30.000
I agree with Dave. But I see that there's In my field, there's two different kinds of costs. So the one is Of course, it's more expensive to use other chemicals to also have proper management systems and processes in place, blah.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:38.000
On the other hand, we have a lot of projects specifically right now at the beginning, so to say.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Where we make stuff more efficient. So you need more investment in the moment, but you will have a break even in the next five or 10 years.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:28:08.000
Depending on what it is. For example, we are going to use our waste heat for 100% of heating of the campus and we have a we will reach break even in three years Which is extremely fast yeah So this is always my discussion with the politicians. And I say, yeah, of course.

00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:20.000
Some things will simply be more expensive. But others will need investment, but then will save a lot of money and we can use parts of this money to to front the rest.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:29.000
But this is in germany uh not possible Because specifically the budgets are separated.

00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000
The investment budget and the operation budget is two different things.

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:39.000
So I have no means to argue that I need more money here and I save it up in five years.

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:51.000
This is really it's the discussion is beginning yeah and we really really need to push for that And not only in Germany, we need to do that on at least in the European level.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:00.000
And then if you have these savings from the efficiency measures, you need to be able to reinvest these savings. Now they're gone.

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:15.000
That just, yeah, someone saves money But I don't have anything else for the next efficiency project. So I need to look for money Again, somewhere else. So this is for us also the biggest uh the biggest constraint in the moment.

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:24.000
And if I want to have one fairy wish I would really refurbish our 60-year-old campus.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.000
And we would save I cannot even put it in numbers.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:41.000
It's really old. It's 60 years old. And by the way, Thomas, we use 120 gigawatt hours And yeah, so do you understand why we need this refurbishment

00:29:41.000 --> 00:30:01.000
I like that too. Okay, so your last comment and Dave also mentioned that is exactly in line with with one difficulty we face with funding We find it very difficult to found infrastructure upgrade or refurbishing.

00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:11.000
So nearly 60-year-old a campus, buildings, and especially scientific equipment, beamlines, accelerators are aging.

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:26.000
And it's always an easier sell. It's never easy. It's an easier sell to try to convince funding agency to build a new something because it's deep in the culture that new must be better.

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:41.000
And, you know, just repairing or actually upgrading to to to to with completely new technology, something which is already in place, it's much more difficult to make it attractive.

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:49.000
And this is really bad because you don't always need a greenfield facility. You don't always need a new facility.

00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:55.000
A new something to have competitive science. And it's a hard sell.

00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:04.000
We face it again and again.

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:16.000
Brilliant. Thank you. Are there any more comments on that question or should we move on. Looks like we're ready to move on. Okay, so now we'll take some questions from the audience. So thank you for submitting those to the Slido and please continue to do so.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:30.000
So the first question is from Jan and he says. As mentioned by Dave, we, the High Energy Physics Community, haven't yet taken the hard decision of not building something on environmental grounds. How are we getting there?

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:36.000
And I think Dave pertained to that a little bit in his talk. So maybe I'll start with you if that's okay, Dave.

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:54.000
If I knew the answer to that, I would be more immersed in the European strategy process than I currently am. I think… We have not yet confronted reality. And the problem is this is not something unique to particle physics. I mean, in society in general.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:01.000
The issue is that we did not confront reality soon enough to make a substantive difference to carbon consumption. So that's a fact.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:09.000
I mean, the way society reacts to a tragedy of the commons type situation where something is in the common good but not in the good of individuals.

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:29.000
Is you regulate. You make laws, you make restrictions, and then everybody agrees to act because we're in a civilized society. Okay, so what does that mean for particle physics? I think it means that probably as a field, and I listened to Ken's talk earlier and he said this as well, it's going to be incredibly difficult for individuals, for groups, for universities, for funding agencies.

00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:38.000
To make the decision to not do science on the grounds of environmental sustainability. It's almost sort of undercutting your own purpose. So it's psychologically very difficult.

00:32:38.000 --> 00:33:04.000
I don't think we're going to have to make those decisions. I think governments are going to make them for us. And as I commented in the chat to Ken's talk, funding agencies won't make these decisions. Governments will make these decisions and funding agencies will have to act accordingly, according to national policy. So my belief is that any major future science or research infrastructure, not just in particle physics.

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:24.000
Is going to come up against increasingly stringent regulations and constraints put in place by governments as they attempt to have their own national programs conversion at zero. So I think we just need to be absolutely aware of that. I think we need to think about if something cannot happen, what is the plan B that maintains our science? And I think we need to work with governments as closely as possible to understand what they are thinking.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:34.000
In the case of particle physics, I think the views of the Swiss government and the Swiss population, and likewise the French will be absolutely vital in this discussion.

00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:41.000
Thanks, Dave. Denise or Thomas, did you have a reply to that?

00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Yeah, go ahead dennis.

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000
Oh, sorry.

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:50.000
No, only, oh, sorry. The only very short thing that I think that the governments, specifically on the European level, they have absolutely no idea.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:07.000
What to ask us. So I really think that we need to develop this and we need to tell them Because as I said earlier, we are different. I think, and now i'm really making a hot statement here. I think that science

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Needs to be allowed to use to not be 100% efficient.

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:30.000
Because we need to try things. We don't know if there will be a result. We need to do that as efficient as possible but Otherwise, this is what I mean. And this is not an easy Question. Yeah, the balance between our responsibility for earth

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:48.000
And our freedom of science, which is a very, very high more good we have yeah so And my feeling with the EU and with germany is they have absolutely no idea and we really try to guide them on what to because

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.000
To not do a project only on the question if it's green or not.

00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:04.000
Is not right. It needs to be a strong criteria but it the scientific questions behind it need to be paramount.

00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.000
Thomas, sorry.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Yeah, I wasn't… Um… to be able to make a decision that would be able to you know that that physicists would have a buy-in And the decision would be to not build something.

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:51.000
I think we have to have a group of physicists think that would champion the idea of, you know, what can we do with upgrading the existing collider the existing detectors the existing. And this is not, you know, it's Right now, it is more attractive or more sexy to say, okay, let's do a new system. What can we do?

00:35:51.000 --> 00:36:00.000
And the culture is not encouraging a group of people to try to champion this idea and be in competition.

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:11.000
With the group of people who try to build something new. And of course, you cannot always new physics with all the old equipment.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:20.000
But we should collectively try to encourage the development of proposals that go along those lines.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:32.000
As an alternative, as a strong plan B. And maybe we shouldn't call it a plan B.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Let me just add one thing just to be even more provocative than we're collectively being.

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:50.000
I mean, you know, the use of carbon is not the only situation where science wants access to a limited resource and wants special provision. There's another thing called money that we use as well.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:37:02.000
And when we have our negotiations with government on that, we are given a fixed amount of it and we are told to go away and do the best science we can for the money. And sometimes they give us a little bit more because the science is super good. I think if one thinks about carbon in the same way, it's clear what you have to do.

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:11.000
First of all, understand the constraints, then understand what the optimal science you can do and how fast you can do it.

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:37.000
Quite. Okay, so next question, which I will post in the chat so that you can read it, is from an anonymous um attendee and it's had a few upvotes saying what are, if any direct technological developments in high energy physics that would contribute towards an impactful greener technology.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:41.000
It's quite a difficult one but potentially someone would like to jump in first.

00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:57.000
I'll jump in first as a I won't answer directly the question. I'm afraid that… we are using technological solution to this problem as a distraction when the solution may not be technological.

00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:14.000
As Ken mentioned in his talk earlier. We see that when we mix something more energy efficient, we just use more of it. And at the end of the day, are we cutting down on the on-camera impact. It's not what the past has shown.

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:23.000
So it's just, and then I leave up to others to answer the question.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:48.000
I mean, I can give it a go. I mean, I think… you know, technology comes in different application areas. I think there clearly are specific technologies under development now for accelerators that will be able to reduce the energy impact of accelerators. And some of those are in the construction carbon and some of them are in the operations. So for instance, the work that's going on around high temperature superconducting magnets, the work that's going on around

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:54.000
More efficient RF cavities. But these are not live or die things, okay? They're improvements on something.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:01.000
I think if we're going to really make a difference, I suspect we have to think about how we are doing the physics.

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:15.000
And we may even need to think about where we're doing the physics as well. And that is a little bit more radical than most people have a taste for. So somebody asked a question earlier, you know, what about the muon collider? Should we just wait for that and not do anything else?

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:39.000
Or should we think about actually pushing forwards on this? That to me is a real decision. So the tension between going for the science as fast as you can and keeping the field alive and keeping the progress And sometimes taking a little bit of a pause, investing in technology R&D and really maybe some careful consideration of the impact and then acting. One of the things, just to repeat what I said earlier again.

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Is that where you build things really makes a difference because the quality of the energy supply and the greenness of the energy supply, of course.

00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:53.000
Is a driving factor. Actually, some of the places we have to build particle accelerators today are pretty good in that respect.

00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Some of them are not so good and we need to think about that.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:01.000
Come to BC. We have low carbon electricity.

00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:03.000
But not by plan.

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:07.000
I hope you go by bicycle.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:22.000
A short answer to that, I'm not a physicist. I cannot really talk about the technical developments. But what I want to say is that we're also there need to have a wider view on things. For example, you know that we are planning PETRA 4

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000
An upgrade of petra free big light source, blah, blah would be the brightest light source in the world.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:36.000
It's a huge energy monster. And so they said, okay, let's use permanent magnets.

00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:46.000
Yeah, nice idea, but permanent magnets do not grow on trees They're made out of rare earths and there is no such thing as a sustainable rare earth.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:41:09.000
In the world. So we really need to also think in systems and see that this one decision may have an impact on a completely different field yeah So it's Yeah, so this technical solutions we really need to foster and and develop

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:16.000
But we also need to Yeah, be more look over that.

00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:33.000
In German, we say, look over the plate border. I don't know how it says in English, but yeah, have a wider look and realize what your impacts are outside of this.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:35.000
Brilliant. Oh, sorry. Go on, Dave.

00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:45.000
No, I was just going to add it. The other obvious low-hanging fruit here, I think we have not yet seen the killer app AI in particle physics.

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:46.000
Yeah.

00:41:46.000 --> 00:42:12.000
And I think there, there really is the potential to make some difference. I think we have a lot of experience in applied statistics, which is office really is, but I think we have not yet seen an experiment designed around AI data analysis. And I think that is all yet to come. So if you're under the age of 30 and you like this stuff, get on with it because I think this could really be the big next step.

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:34.000
Yes, definitely. Just following on from that, because this question is very linked to it Someone asked, we can't We can't all move computer centers to green areas. So the whole world's computer center cannot be placed in these countries that have very green electricity. So what else can we do there?

00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Not convinced. Well, one would have to look at that argument rather carefully because, of course, there are a significant number of large multinational companies doing exactly that right now and they will gladly sell you their time on the cloud. And what we're really saying is we don't want to pay them. So that is a different statement. Yes, there is more complexity to it than that, I'm aware.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:01.000
I think what else we can do is have a look very carefully at the way we are using computing.

00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:08.000
You know, I was, I'm an old guy, so I worked on things before VLHC where computing was not a thing.

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:16.000
Right. And certain experiments where one got to do one's analysis by running through all of the tapes once a month.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000
And everybody had to join the train, right? And if you didn't, you didn't and you missed the deadline.

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:42.000
You know, we're not used to working in that way on current particle physics experiments now that has unleashed a great deal of creativity, but I think it would be very hard to argue objectively that was the most efficient way of doing the computing. I think if we were in an industry, we would be asked some very hard questions. So we're not there yet. And we're not constrained in that way. Quite what this is going to look like when we get to LHC Run 4.

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:48.000
I don't know. I think there may have to be some aspects of rethinking there. So surely we can push down.

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:56.000
But you will limit the creativity by doing so.

00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:57.000
Okay, thanks for that, Dave. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:08.000
That's only on data centers or do we come back two data centers later on.

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:09.000
Yeah.

00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:20.000
I mean, we can open the data center part Because then, because if the question is specifically on data centers then Of course, a lot has been done in terms of cooling and the buildings and so on and so forth. I think that

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:38.000
Most data centers i know are on a good track. The big problem and here I come back to Thomas is again the culture thing that this data management yeah these this Oh, no, we cannot delete anything.

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:45.000
Yeah, because maybe we need it. So we shut down Hera in 2007.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:50.000
And not even half the data we collected with Hera is being looked at right now.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:07.000
I'm sorry, but maybe I'm not scientific enough but hey Is that a good idea? So how can we manage that but in a way that we do not delete something important, but that we do not delete the next Higgs.

00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:18.000
By accident, yeah. But I think we really need to think about this also simulations and stuff been run again and again and again because someone forget a criteria, forgot a criteria.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:21.000
They had to put in and then they do it again.

00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:29.000
This is a culture thing because so far didn't cost anything. I come back to dave's idea We have a limited amount.

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:43.000
And you need to use this amount wisely. And that's the that yeah it's really it's a very very very tough discussion going on.

00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:44.000
Yeah.

00:45:44.000 --> 00:46:01.000
So, yeah, creativity of physicists is infinite Okay. In two ways, their creativity in expanding to fill any necessary resources to the maximum is incredible. And their capability to conduct excellent science within limited resources is also fantastic. I spent most of my career designing trigger systems where everything had to be done in one microsecond, right?

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:07.000
It can be done. So I am not scared of constraints like that, Denise. I think we need to start talking that language, yeah.

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:14.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's I can tell that in the last five years, this had gotten a lot of dynamics.

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:22.000
And the discussion changed already quite a lot. But other things we can do with data centers, we're just trying that out at Daisy right now.

00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:29.000
Is to run them according to the availability of sun and wind.

00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:43.000
It's a digital twin idea. So it's a simulation on how we could do that, but really to switch off certain things and do some kind of work then later in the night or when the wind is blowing a lot or

00:46:43.000 --> 00:47:03.000
Stuff like that. And we really need to invest in these kind of ideas quite a lot. And there's also a bunch of projects on this going on um yeah Let's see, I hope that in a year or one and a half, we have some kind of result on that. But I'm really looking forward to it.

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:05.000
Because I love the idea.

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.000
I expand a little bit if you allow me on this idea. We almost need to think of our labs of the scientific community as a as a gardener.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:38.000
As a forest, as something you know some days you do this, someday you don't, and you do something else and when you And when you work in a garden or you plant a forest you you You're building on a very long term. You put this plant here, you put this tree here and you think about the shade it's going to make in 100 years. And is this the right place for it and

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:49.000
And we look at short time scale and we want our thing right now no matter what the wind of the sun on that day.

00:47:49.000 --> 00:48:00.000
And I'm a gardener. I would like to spread this way of seeing the word.

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.000
You're right.

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Thank you. Yeah, I really like that. That's a nice way of visualizing it on how we need to plan things and and work together.

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000
Okay, so I'll take the next question from the audience. This one was from Diego. And the question is, in most facilities, the people working in sustainability have other responsibilities as well.

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:30.000
How feasible would it be to have a team that only focuses on this?

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:33.000
Maybe I start because my team is only focusing on that.

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:40.000
I think there's no there's no perfect solution.

00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:05.000
Because, of course, we are a very small team yeah we have 3,000 people at daisy with a lot of international collaborations, tone, whatever you have And we are just five people and we also have the complete energy management But the good thing is that we can, first we are a staff unit. Whenever I want to talk to the directors, I do that.

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:09.000
Yeah, I don't need any So we can't just go there.

00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:15.000
We have impact or we can reach out to all the different groups at daisy.

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:24.000
Of course, I cannot order anyone to do anything. But I also got some money and I got someone who knows how to get funding.

00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:33.000
So she spends like half her time only on searching for funding for all kinds of projects, sustainability projects.

00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:45.000
It's working pretty well. We can communicate it together. I showed you our sustainability report. We will have another one. We really have a pretty good website if you want to have a look. It's in German and in English.

00:49:45.000 --> 00:50:08.000
So this inspiration thing, this bringing stuff together the communication also towards funding agencies and stuff is is… is a really good thing to have that in a central unit. But of course, I mean, I'm a political scientist. I cannot discuss with the magnet guys. There's no way

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:28.000
They can tell me whatever they want. So I have two physicists who can talk a little bit with them, but none of you can talk about every single technical piece in such an accelerator there is no no such thing. So this is why I think that we also need to invest in the teaching

00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:37.000
Of general ideas like design for sustainability what to look at So that people then can do it themselves. So I'm a fan of a central unit.

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:42.000
A small one with a direct approach and a mandate, a really strong mandate, yeah?

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.000
Because if I say we need to do that Then the directors tell their groups that we need to do that.

00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:55.000
So this is something you need to get. But I see in other handheld centers in Germany, there it is, as Diego said.

00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:00.000
It's the secretary of the and she has 10% of her time.

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:07.000
Yeah, we don't need that. And Dave is nodding because you have this is the center coming

00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:19.000
What what she what she said yes Yes. I mean, obviously, to some extent, I mean, Daisy have been leaders on this and we have modeled a little bit what we have done on Daisy.

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:24.000
I absolutely agree. But the key point here is you do need a team with dedicated time and that team has to have authority.

00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:42.000
So what we have done is we have put that team within our operations department because those guys have a big switch and they can turn you off if they get cross with you. But again, the link into the science is absolutely important. Nobody understands everything across all of the disciplines. And so what we are finding without the science, you reach a natural limit.

00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Where you cannot see the solution. So putting people in contact. So I think the daisy model is a good one.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:56.000
Okay, if… Yeah.

00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:01.000
Thomas, how is it organized at Triomphe?

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Next question. Not very well.

00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.000
Okay.

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:29.000
The… The campus were in the bigger campus, UBC has a small team of people who are focused on sustainability. They even have a faculty I forget the exact name where they they have They have professors and students focusing on that field of research and they have a program

00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:40.000
With objectives to reduce the carbon emission on the campus. I forget the goal date net zero in 2040, something like that.

00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:54.000
But Triumph, which is something a different entity on the same campus We are not very well organized in this respect.

00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:59.000
Not yet.

00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:20.000
By the way, Hannah, what I forget is that is because you are part of this these grassroots initiatives yeah who push from from bottom up are also very, very important and helps me in the middle because if I get the pushing from the bottom, then I go to the top and say, hey, they're pushing. I need to. We need to.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Yeah, so it's really helpful.

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.000
Yeah, and use the champions first. Use everybody who wants it.

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:35.000
Yeah, I think we need to convert it from all angles. So top down, bottom up, side to side just

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:36.000
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:39.000
And then others will follow.

00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:43.000
All right. So I'll follow on with the next question then.

00:53:43.000 --> 00:54:08.000
So this is an anonymous question saying How much focus is put on showcasing the efforts or innovations made towards sustainable high energy physics facilities to the local non-physics community for raising awareness? And we will put that in the chat too if you can't hear me properly.

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:13.000
Um from From here, I can insert from my perspective.

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:33.000
I don't know in general but not very much. It's just individuals some of my close colleagues and friends who will take on themselves to do the to try to um do this outreach and do some of the showcasing.

00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:39.000
But it's… But it's very important that we do that.

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:47.000
Especially, you know, if we should learn something from what's happening in the US, education.

00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:55.000
Education is everything And if we live in ivory towers, there are large risk associated with that.

00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:06.000
And are we doing enough? No, no. We are doing some. We should build on top of that and expand.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:28.000
Yeah, I would say it's a similar situation. I think we do not put significant emphasis in in taking a public position on what we are doing. I think, frankly, one of the reasons is because the situation has been sufficiently bad so far that we don't really want to publicize where we are. I suspect when we start getting concrete actions taken.

00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:50.000
And visible, measurable reductions, I think we'll be far more confident about that. However, as UK colleagues in the room know, this isn't going to survive much longer because we have got a carbon budgeting system coming in from government. And so actually a lot of these numbers are going to be published. And I suspect when that happens, then we will see pressure groups looking at those numbers as they do for finance.

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:59.000
And asking us questions, why are you doing this? Why are you not doing this? So I think probably this is the last year of obscurity.

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:19.000
Yeah, it's getting harder here too. One addition is that we always the thing is you in my experience, you cannot communicate only these kind of these ecological impacts and stuff Separately from your science.

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:23.000
The questions we get much more often is. Do you produce black holes?

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:30.000
So you need to Try to put this together.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:48.000
What we have good um good experiences with is that we have for Hamburg we have once a year we have an open door day one complete sunday We have about 15,000 people coming to the campus.

00:56:48.000 --> 00:57:00.000
We open up all the tunnels, everything. So it's really it's for the kids there's music there's yeah it's really like a big party We have programs for kindergartens. We have programs for schools.

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:09.000
We have normal public lecturers and stuff.

00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:18.000
Which is always about the science, but we include the sustainability part into these lectures and stuff. And if you get the kids, you get the parents.

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:28.000
Stuff like that. And also, to be honest, the local newspapers are always very, very conscious about what's going on at DC. Just yesterday.

00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:40.000
High level magazine called The Hamburger came out with a long story about Daisy and all the signs they do.

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:55.000
And me so we yeah we were able to to put this all together and this is really something we we And for that, by the way, is a staff unit like ours a very good thing because we can talk about everything yeah because we have the overview of what's happening

00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:04.000
On campus and we can bring things together on a level a normal person understands.

00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:26.000
But yeah, I agree with Dave it's getting Yeah, I mean, the monitoring and the reporting stuff is getting, I mean, we also have by next uh mid of next year, we have to have an environmental management system in place by law and we need to publish it.

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:32.000
And we will.

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:33.000
Thomas, did you want to say anything on that or shall we move on?

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:43.000
I was going to um i was looking for the quote. I was going to paste a quote from Carl Sagan, I think which is bang on relevant to what we're talking about in the chat.

00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Okay.

00:58:45.000 --> 00:59:03.000
You probably all know that.

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.000
Yes.

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.000
There's more. It's just the beginning of the quote, but you can…

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:14.000
Yeah, I like it.

00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:22.000
All right. Thank you. So I will ask the next question then.

00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:28.000
Do your institutions provide training for staff on sustainability and allow work time to develop ideas for this?

00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:38.000
And are there existing or planned initiatives

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:48.000
Yes, not enough. We do to some extent. I think we will attempt to do far more of this in the future.

00:59:48.000 --> 01:00:02.000
But obviously, you know, one has to run the engagement and the thinking and the available time and money in parallel. So I think it's a ramp up on all of those things. But I think it's essential. No one except us.

01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:09.000
Can invent our way out of this problem to the extent you can invent your way out of the problem, right?

01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:30.000
Yeah, it's the same here. But I think the first step we were able to do is that the the group leaders and the directors understand that in all these developments The sooner you put the sustainability part in there the less it costs in money, in time, in everything.

01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:43.000
And they understand that now. Yeah, it took a while, but this is really so we're now we are for example we have a daisy white teaching on project management.

01:00:43.000 --> 01:01:04.000
And we are part of that already. We're currently developing a workshop idea on design for sustainability what can we yeah what what regardless which technology, but on a meta level For PETRA 4, we have had for all the, because it's all new developments

01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:12.000
First, we talked to all the groups and told them what sustainability is, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:34.000
Then we had kind of questionnaires and stuff to really remind them again and again and again to get this in there. Then we connect them with experts, for example, our magnet guys They're really good and I don't want to blame anyone, but we had then a few guys who work on recycling of magnets, of permanent magnets.

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:49.000
And they came and they discussed with our magnets guys and then they said, yeah, our big problem with the recycling is that we don't get the magnets out of where they're built in because they're glued together with a lot of glue.

01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:53.000
And then our magnet guy says, yeah, we can do without you.

01:01:53.000 --> 01:02:06.000
But we didn't so far yeah because with glue, of course, it holds better So the solution is not no glue, but the solution is as little glue as possible so that we can make the recycling easier.

01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:11.000
And you really need to get these people together. Of course, if I go there and tell them that.

01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:17.000
They say, are you nuts? You're a political scientist. You're not even a real scientist. Go away.

01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:24.000
But if someone, another physicist comes along and says, oh, we have this and that problem, then it's much easier.

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:37.000
And this again is something that a staff unit can can develop and provide these networking ideas and and the research on who is working on that and And so on and so forth.

01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:43.000
This is a fantastic story. Yeah.

01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:49.000
I wish we… I don't know. We had more shared resources.

01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:55.000
Story or maybe some of the The training you provide, the presentation you show.

01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:13.000
That is something that we could tap on, you know, from our side. If I have to build or if we have to build this training, it's a lot of effort, but if we can Learn from you and recycle and it is a place where we can get that then it would be much easier indeed

01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:40.000
Now to maybe on the side note, recycling of components is also something I wanted to try to bring up here, but… Except if you build a new collider, a lot of the other nuclear physics or even some of the particle physics experiment are built on recycled component or can be.

01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:52.000
I look at our beamlines here. We build a lot of new beamlines out of most of them are recycled components, but this process is actually very difficult. It's not organized. It's ad hoc. It's because I know a friend in kk and

01:03:52.000 --> 01:04:09.000
And so they have Sierra Magnet there and I give a call. And there is no centralized database of information Where I can go look and design my next BIM 9 knowing what's available to me instead of having a greenfield design and putting the magnet I need and then look

01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:21.000
For similar magnets, they may not exist. But if I know what's available, I would make a different design And then I would not actually use as much steel and copper and permanent magnets and you name it.

01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:28.000
Because I would recycle. And… Yeah.

01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:41.000
There is a need for a centralized entity to coordinate These efforts to provide training, to share resources in a way, and maybe that's what you're trying to do here. I don't know.

01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:49.000
I hope so.

01:04:49.000 --> 01:05:00.000
Thanks for that. Dwayne, I see you've raised your hand. Is that a discussion point that you wanted to raise?

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:05.000
Yeah, so it was just following directly this conversation that we had, if it was allowed.

01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Because the question is interesting as well because one of the things that doesn't get talked about enough in sustainability is you have a site and it has resources like a data center or like computing clusters. And one of the things you can also do for sustainability

01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:27.000
Is get people to use them in the best way and the most efficient way possible, which is where training comes in as well.

01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:42.000
And so a lot of institutions do training on this is what we produce this is how the best way to use it, but they don't frame it in a way that it is

01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:51.000
Just comment on that. I think that's exactly correct. And it's a really good point. But I mean, often these things become empirical.

01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:58.000
Right. So I think one of the other things you do need for training, but in some cases nobody knows what the solution is. So you also have to have the measurement.

01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:04.000
Yep. So one of the things that we are trying to get done, which I think is super important.

01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:09.000
Is actually built into the computing systems when you get your job report back from your grid job.

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:23.000
You get an accounting of how much carbon used. And that way you can close the loop, right?

01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:30.000
This is a great idea. I love it.

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:47.000
Thank you. So we have two more questions. If anyone wants to submit more questions, please do so soon because we're coming to the end of I guess this section or the list of questions that are already available So the next question is

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Big science emits far less than meat or fast fashion, etc.

01:06:51.000 --> 01:07:06.000
While furthering knowledge. Can physics Can physicists, scientists act globally to push stronger climate policy?

01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:16.000
We educate a lot of people we end up in positions where the can make changes.

01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:36.000
Even not necessarily becoming scientists but policy makers and and political leaders. So yeah, through education, but it takes a generation to make a change. Do we have that much time? Well, anyway, we have to do that as well.

01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:52.000
I think in terms of should we campaign for not fast fashion It's really a hard question. I can tell you within the last few years

01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:58.000
We had of course Daisy made the statement.

01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:07.000
Regarding the war from Russia towards Ukraine. Of course, we made a statement towards Gaza and Israel.

01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:26.000
But it is really I mean, this year, 3,000 people And these 3,000 people come from different parts of the society and we had I mean, people did rip off flags and stuff Because they say that this is not that this is

01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:38.000
My opinion this is and this is daisy, we should focus on the science part and not engage too much into these political discussions.

01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:41.000
I don't have a solution. I can only tell you that this was easier before.

01:08:41.000 --> 01:09:04.000
And now we have these weird times And it's it's really Yeah, we get more cautious of what we say on things which are not directly related to our science.

01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.000
Yeah.

01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:19.000
Yeah, I think that situation varies across different organizations. So for those of us who are effectively directly run and funded by government, there are strong restrictions on what we can say. That does not stop an individual saying something, but as an organization becomes difficult. I want to pick up on Thomas's point. I think it's super important. I mean, it is unambiguously part of our mission to address the Sagan point.

01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:33.000
Which is to have increased the level of general education on basic science and technology principles in society. I think particle physics and astronomy and other subjects have a really big role to play in that. We all accept that. I think it's what excites the general public.

01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:37.000
I think keep doing that as well. The other point is leading by example.

01:09:37.000 --> 01:09:56.000
And I think, you know, we are running between us all some of the most very, very visible and most energy intensive scientific apparatus that there is in the world. If we are not seen to be taking this seriously, then why should industry take it seriously? And I think we really have to lead by example to the extent we can.

01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:00.000
Perhaps particle physics is not so easy, but in certainly another big science, I think that can be done.

01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:12.000
I'll just throw in as well, somebody's just mentioned in the chat that there are ways of getting together and discussing these things. Don't forget, guys, there's a European strategy process coming up. You have your chance to give your input.

01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:19.000
Do not miss the opportunity.

01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:26.000
So perhaps, however, you'd like to um bring a discussion point. I see your hand was raised. Hello.

01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.000
Thank you for sharing the link, by the way. I'm looking at it now.

01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:31.000
Hi. Thanks.

01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Thanks. I'm not going to switch my camera on because everything behind me is in a bit of a mess.

01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:44.000
But my affiliation in this context is with IUPAP, the International Union for Pure and Applied Physics.

01:10:44.000 --> 01:11:03.000
And it has recently started working group 21 for climate change action and sustainable development and yes It needs to find ways of making people aware of raising awareness all over the place but there are the most remarkable things happening

01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:20.000
For example, I know of at least One quantum science laboratory That is under helena Rubenstein Dunlop, where they work largely with sustainable materials. Of course.

01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:24.000
It's a different scale. Accelerator physics.

01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:32.000
And they dispose of everything sustainably. And they talk about sustainability among the scientists all the time.

01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:41.000
And she was chosen to give a talk at a recent symposium at the General Assembly in Hainan, China.

01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:46.000
And it was amazing. And in terms of physicists speaking out.

01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:59.000
The three Nobel Prize winners from 2021 in physics, especially in physics especially Giorgio Parisi.

01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:07.000
Do speak out about sustainability, about the stairs. The stage of the planet and they will when else that's the most remarkable thing.

01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:20.000
I think one of them is a little elderly now but um gee Certainly, Professor Parisi is on board with this.

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:25.000
Thanks.

01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:31.000
Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. That's really interesting. I wonder, oh, please, Denise, yes.

01:12:31.000 --> 01:12:47.000
Very shortly because ICWA was mentioned here. They also have a special panel on sustainability sustainable accelerator development. I'm part of that panel and I can tell you it's dead.

01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:59.000
So if you guys really, this is really stuff you need to engage in yeah so this is the panel really, I think it's 30 people around the world. And normally we are three people in these calls.

01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:12.000
So we do have a call next week. And I will tell them about this year and maybe see if we can arrange Hannah with you and the organizers of this year.

01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:32.000
A meeting to get things together. And then there's other things. You also know that we have these SV conference system where IGFA is a partner now and it It's the energies a sustainable science.

01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:44.000
For research infrastructures. It's every other year as we conference exactly i will i will look for the for the indigo link It's every other year. The next one will be in Italy next year.

01:13:44.000 --> 01:14:00.000
It's also growing and we need to use all these things we have there to get more together, to exchange more and to build more momentum and motivation and And start knowing of each other.

01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:17.000
I can tell you that there is a good there is a good working together, specifically in europe So that is, as I said, this is in all these free communities uh photon science HEP and isoparticle.

01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:27.000
And therefore, we know quite a lot. But we need to really strengthen this and get all the champions and everybody who wants to do something into this.

01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:36.000
I see that my boss is on the ICWAR panel. When he cannot come, tell him to send me.

01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:43.000
Okay, wait a second. Where, where, where?

01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:44.000
America. America. Um robots.

01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:47.000
Here's your bills?

01:14:47.000 --> 01:14:51.000
I never saw that guy. I really, I never met him. He never shows.

01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:55.000
No, it's Bob. Bob. Maybe you know him by his nickname. Bob Blackstone.

01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:56.000
He was in the…

01:14:56.000 --> 01:15:01.000
No, no. It's normally it's… me and mike and that's basically it. And sometimes Peter comes, but he didn't show the last time.

01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:09.000
Thomas Rolla?

01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:11.000
And that's it.

01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:17.000
Noted.

01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:26.000
Okay, so we're going to get the attendance of these meetings up, I think, especially if we name and shame publicly.

01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:36.000
So, um. I don't know if you're looking for something, Denise, but I can move on to the next question if everyone's ready.

01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:41.000
Okay, I'll move on for now. So this one is a very specific question.

01:15:41.000 --> 01:15:55.000
I think following on from Dave's introductory talk. Saying extending LHC run 4 beyond 2041 is probably going to become inevitable and we should also consider the environmental impact implications of that.

01:15:55.000 --> 01:16:00.000
I guess more of a statement, but do you have anything to say?

01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:08.000
I mean, I don't have anything specific to say because i think um that there's competing effects there.

01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:23.000
So I think using the existing infrastructures you have to the optimal extent is a good thing. On the other hand, running non-sustainable infrastructures when you have more effective ways of doing science is also not a good thing. I think it's probably inevitable that that will happen.

01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:37.000
We will see. Let's try and make every effort to at least make the data analysis sustainable, which is the thing we can change at this point.

01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:43.000
Okay, and final question from the audience on this more are submitted last second.

01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:58.000
How do we change the incentive system in science so that engagement in sustainability is rewarded given short timescale of contracts etc

01:16:58.000 --> 01:16:59.000
I don't know. I'm just, sorry, sorry. Go ahead, go ahead.

01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:14.000
That is a good question. I mean. No, I was going to say, I mean, this to me comes under the category of of There are many professional behaviors we would like to encourage in people still making their early career.

01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:34.000
Every time we have a European strategy meeting or a national meeting or a meeting of ECFA, we discuss why don't we reward people to build detectors? Why don't we reward computing people? And it's not quite the same as that, but I think it's right that the incentives at the moment are not correct. You know, I think we should really be thinking about the long-term future sustainability of our science.

01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:42.000
And that means there is an incentive for us to put people into permanent positions who actually get this problem and have made a contribution to solving it.

01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:56.000
The traditional way and signs of doing that is to recognize people through prizes and awards and honors. Maybe we should think about this.

01:17:56.000 --> 01:18:03.000
Yeah, I. I agree. On a smaller scale then.

01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:25.000
Yeah. You know, this culture of career advancement through visibility going to conferences and you you put Yeah, when you're looking for a payment position, you try to put on your CV, the invited talks you got, where you've been but

01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:31.000
Why don't we encourage in some way people to showcase where they haven't been?

01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:36.000
And where they asked somebody else who was already going to the conference to give that talk.

01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:59.000
And what, you know, that would be that would be a way to showcase the personal effort. I know, I know, but it's just the I thought from one person won't change a lot, but it's just a sign that this person has a different you know has made a cultural change and then maybe this is the sort of person you want to

01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:29.000
Higher as a permanent staff to make changes happen. And maybe that goes through training. Maybe we have to put these ideas together, maybe better ideas than that, and try to train people on what can you do and how can you showcase and what decision you can make to advance your career in a different way than what is the standard way of doing it with a lot of travels at the moment.

01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:37.000
Okay, so we're coming towards the end of our time here.

01:19:37.000 --> 01:19:44.000
And I really, really do thank and appreciate our panelists and all of your questions towards them.

01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:53.000
I think I'll ask one final question that we did pre-organize, but I think we'll hopefully wrap this all up quite nicely.

01:19:53.000 --> 01:20:05.000
And that question is, how can we and labs collaborate internationally together to achieve our environmental targets like these net zero targets.

01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:12.000
So my point there is like the collaborate. What can we really do together?

01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:34.000
And I think you've seen a little bit of collaboration in action already. So there are those who have been pioneers in this field yet to get there. And I think demonstrating good practice through meetings like this is extremely important. I think we're seeing the structures come together now. I mean, somebody mentioned the Iqva

01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:57.000
Panel. Yes, we have things at the European level in LDG, we tried to organize something as well. I think maybe it's time to put that on a more formal basis. And I would say let's look very carefully, see what comes up the European strategy. And then maybe there is room for putting in some new structures. But I think that has to be a super high level discussion.

01:20:57.000 --> 01:21:04.000
If the incentive is there from the bottom up, I think it will happen.

01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:17.000
I agree. I think that there is a lot of exchange. There is a lot of Meanwhile friendships going on in this field So that's really many, many people engaged.

01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:40.000
And there's a lot of exchanging of data, of ideas, of things, and also development of new ideas and stuff it's really it's really going uh there's a lot of dynamic in this development And I also agree with Dave that I think we're close to the point where we can get it in a more formalized

01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:56.000
Way also then towards the EU and other bodies to to make it formal and in some formal way. And Hannah, you know that that we need to agree on if we have a look on environmental impact on what do we look

01:21:56.000 --> 01:22:04.000
Because if we look, for example, for a linear collider on FE's crew and every teeny tiny thing in that tunnel.

01:22:04.000 --> 01:22:09.000
This is impossible. So we need some agreements on which numbers to use, what to look at.

01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:24.000
Stuff like that. But I think that they are on… In a moment, it's so exciting because everybody comes along like Twice a week, someone calls and says, we have an idea. We want to make this project. Can you come with us?

01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:37.000
So it's really, really, there's a lot of dynamic in this thing and i've and and yeah and we will we will get there i'm pretty uh optimistic there.

01:22:37.000 --> 01:22:38.000
And we take Thomas with us because he is too pessimistic.

01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:42.000
So…

01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:46.000
Sorry.

01:22:46.000 --> 01:23:04.000
To… to improve the international collaboration they are group like ICFA and, you know, to try to centralize that. But at the moment, the real collaboration happens peer-to-peer between labs. Memoradom of understanding with agreements.

01:23:04.000 --> 01:23:14.000
But maybe it might be more efficient to centralize that, to have a very strong united nation of particle physics or you name it the way you want.

01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:33.000
Right at the center where lab sign MOUs with this entity. And through this entity, we can share equipment and share databases and share it. And so, of course, I'm trying to solve a problem now by adding one more layer of indirection, but that may be a solution.

01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:46.000
And this doesn't exist, that might be a way to facilitate collaboration effectively.

01:23:46.000 --> 01:24:06.000
Brilliant. Well, on that note, I think that that was a really nice way to end. We need to have As we've already discussed a few times, top-down, bottom up, side to side collaboration to really make this work between all of the different facilities across the world.

01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:16.000
In high energy physics and other fields too, not just high energy physics So I guess I would like to invite you to say a few final words if you'd like.

01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:20.000
For the panellists.

01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:28.000
What can we say? I mean, this is super important, clearly. It will decrease in importance as we go on in time.

01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:42.000
It will become a dominant and deciding factor in what we do in the future. Certainly for those who are a little bit younger than younger than me, I think you are doing a great thing by having this meeting and the discussion has been fantastic.

01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:47.000
I wish you an excellent workshop and we will continue the discussion.

01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:48.000
Thanks, Dave.

01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:53.000
I would like to thank you, Hannah, for the excellent work you've done.

01:24:53.000 --> 01:25:07.000
Organizing this panel discussion with the discussion we had ahead of the exchange of emails and all of you put them yeah it worked well because uh of your great work. Thank you very much.

01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:12.000
And thanks, not just me, the whole team for that.

01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:28.000
Yeah. Also, thank you from from me with for all the team it's really and i mean you do this now You also do that on a more or less voluntary basis. No one's really This is a bottom-up thing and it is it is in meanwhile it is

01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:34.000
So professional i remember the first tries we had and the white paper and all these things.

01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:51.000
And it's really it's really congratulations for that. This is really because grassroots is so hard and so complicated. I started as a Greenpeace grassroots student at some point, so I really appreciate what they're doing.

01:25:51.000 --> 01:26:03.000
Thanks for inviting us. And you see that also the discussions get more and more with real content and not only blah blah I love it. Thank you a lot.

01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:14.000
Thank you so much. Yeah, so I guess that comes to the end of our panel. Thank you once again so much to the panelists. That was really wonderful that you were able to join us. And I do appreciate it is coming into your evening now.

01:26:14.000 --> 01:26:19.000
So I do hope you enjoy your evening, not for you, Thomas. I think you've got some afternoon left.

01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:21.000
I'm starting my day pretty much.

01:26:21.000 --> 01:26:37.000
Pretty much, yeah. So we really are an international conference right now. So I really appreciate you coming in at all of your different time zones I would like to quickly say, or I could also pass over to Chandra Moni if he's still available. But we do have

01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:43.000
Our next two days of the conference coming up and that will be in more European time zone.

01:26:43.000 --> 01:27:03.000
So we do welcome you to join those. We have a lot more talks coming up Especially on more individual submissions and showing the contributions to high energy physics that are ongoing within our field today. So they'll be very interesting to follow.

01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:04.000
You'll make the recordings available right

01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:15.000
Yeah, perhaps. Yes, everything will be recorded and available. So if the time zone doesn't work for you or you're busy, then you can access those later and we'll upload those as soon as possible.

01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:24.000
So yeah, I'd like to, I guess, hand over to uh maybe Who's coordinating? Is it you, Shirisi?

01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:25.000
To wrap up for the day. Or Shajamoni. Okay.

01:27:25.000 --> 01:27:31.000
I can… You can go ahead. Go on. Go ahead.

01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:50.000
Hi, so yeah thanks a lot, everyone. And before ending we would like to take a screenshot If everyone's okay, if you'd like to turn on your cameras would be very nice.

01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:59.000
And yeah.

01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:10.000
Sorry for surprising this on you. Maybe we should have given you a little warning.

01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:20.000
Okay, let's see. What's the best? You loved a speaker.

01:28:20.000 --> 01:28:23.000
I did take a screenshot.

01:28:23.000 --> 01:28:24.000
Okay. So you're… All right.

01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:38.000
But there's a few more people who switched on their videos but i think it's it had enough participants.

01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:39.000
It's not quite the same.

01:28:39.000 --> 01:28:47.000
Okay, so yeah, we'll put Yeah. We'll put this picture up on our Indigo page soon after the meeting today.

01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:55.000
And yeah, it was lovely and you like all of the panel uh panelists, it was lovely to have the discussion.

01:28:55.000 --> 01:28:59.000
And hopefully see you tomorrow and on Thursday, or please follow with the videos as you would like and So see you guys later.

01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:09.000
You.