WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.080 Yamina Saheb: I must finish at 7, 15, right? 2 00:00:03.837 --> 00:00:08.719 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Yeah, that would be great if if possible. You can. You can. As we're a little bit. You can run a little bit later, too. 3 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:09.733 Yamina Saheb: Okay, okay. 4 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:37.729 Yamina Saheb: okay, thank you for the opportunity to share with you what I am working on these days. I work on the sufficiency concept which is not a new concept. Its roads go back to the Greek civilization for us, but we do find sufficiency in almost all civilizations, and what sufficiency does? Is it questions the mainstream economics and policies. 5 00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:47.920 Yamina Saheb: and it shifts. If we shift towards sufficiency economy. This means that we will shift from the mainstream economics to physics inspired economics. 6 00:00:48.310 --> 00:00:52.290 Yamina Saheb: which is something that's that there are 7 00:00:52.340 --> 00:01:19.119 Yamina Saheb: researchers who started working on embedding physics in economics, but not necessarily with the links to policies. So maybe 1st thing is, as I know, that plenty of people are not familiar with the concept of sufficiency. So look at just this figure. Sufficiency is where philosophy and several scientific discipline theories developed in philosophy, and several scientific disciplines meet 8 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:27.009 Yamina Saheb: in philosophy. Sufficiency is described as distributive justice, theory based on equity. 9 00:01:27.010 --> 00:01:50.920 Yamina Saheb: in social science and in political science, as an organizing principle of societies and an organizing principle where the most closest to us is democracies. So sufficiency is about democracy. Why? Because it's about equity, and from anthropology and psychology. It's about human well-being. 10 00:01:51.080 --> 00:02:11.679 Yamina Saheb: human needs and human well-being. But the human well-being that is considered is not the hedonic well-being which is the individualistic version of the well-being. It's more the societal well-being, and this is where it joins at the same time the principle of societal organization, democracies and equity. 11 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:32.929 Yamina Saheb: And what does that mean? From economics perspective? It means actually embedding physics in economics with the objective of satisfying human needs within the planetary boundaries, because if sufficiency would be considered so, the overshoot of planetary boundaries would be taken more seriously in economic policies 12 00:02:32.970 --> 00:02:57.549 Yamina Saheb: by combining what I was able to find about sufficiency in all these disciplines and other disciplines as well. I did end up with this definition of sufficiency. So from political science and political and social science. We understand that sufficiency is a set of policy measures and daily practices. So it's not about the behavior of individuals. 13 00:02:57.640 --> 00:03:23.700 Yamina Saheb: It's about daily practices. The main difference between the 2 is that sufficiency recognizes that as individuals we are locked in. For example, the infrastructures that we have good illustration of this is the shift that we see in our cities towards biking, because today we do have the infrastructure to bike. So it's not behavior change. It is 1st having the infrastructure that allows us 14 00:03:23.700 --> 00:03:36.220 Yamina Saheb: to use different ways for different solutions for our mobility. But to arrive to these infrastructures you must have the right majority, actually. And that's why it's a democratic issue 15 00:03:36.220 --> 00:04:00.630 Yamina Saheb: from environmental perspective. What these policies and daily practices do is that they void upfront the demand for all natural resources and not just energy. As sufficiency has been understood so far in France and Germany. It's about all natural resources, because each time we use any other natural resources than energy, we always need energy to 16 00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:21.860 Yamina Saheb: extract, extract, transform, and use the other natural resources. And then from philosophy and psychology and anthropology. This is what we have from philosophy. What we learn is that sufficiency has 2 corridors. It has a lower limit, which is the well-being for all. 17 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:45.469 Yamina Saheb: and the upper limit, which is the planetary boundaries. Philosophers do not define the lower and the upper limit. From philosophers. What we learn is that sufficiency has these 2 limits. And then what I did was I did find in. For example, the planetary boundaries comes from earth system, science 18 00:04:45.470 --> 00:05:09.589 Yamina Saheb: and well-being for all comes from social science, from political science, as well from different disciplines. And this is why I propose to consider well-being for all as a lower limit and planetary boundaries as an upper limit. This definition ended in the Ipcc mitigation report, but also in synthesis report of the 19 00:05:09.590 --> 00:05:12.330 Yamina Saheb: 6th cycle of the Ipcc. 20 00:05:12.330 --> 00:05:18.830 Yamina Saheb: Now, what does sufficiency. What does physics could do? How sufficiency links to physics. 21 00:05:18.830 --> 00:05:43.549 Yamina Saheb: The simple way to explain sufficiency through physics is about considering sufficiency is about policies that are based on the 1st and the second principle of thermodynamics, which is not the case today. In our policies, in mainstream economics, entropy is ignored, completely ignored, and in mainstream economics, the main. 22 00:05:43.550 --> 00:06:08.320 Yamina Saheb: it's all based on a perfect world. It's based on a word that does not exist. Actually, while by embedding physics in economics, we can take into account the real world. What's happening in the real world and the real world is much more complex than the linear interactions that we are able that we learn to model in 23 00:06:08.320 --> 00:06:17.350 Yamina Saheb: mainstream economics. And in the real world, actually, there is no rational behavior, because there are plenty of uncertainties that makes us 24 00:06:17.350 --> 00:06:29.000 Yamina Saheb: behaving in one way or another, and in real the real world is much more complex, but it is able to adapt, which is not the case in the mainstream economics. 25 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:51.750 Yamina Saheb: So some examples I will give you in the following slide some examples of how physics helps us in anticipating and in designing economic policies that could deliver on well-being for all within planetary boundaries, which is what sufficiency is about. 26 00:06:51.890 --> 00:07:05.239 Yamina Saheb: So a few examples that happened that are that we know that are the most recent ones. For example, the 2,008 financial crisis. There are different ways to assess it. 27 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:33.989 Yamina Saheb: and if you try to apply to the crisis to assess the crisis using principles from physics, and then this allows to have better recognizing the earlier, the systemic risk that exist with any system, because there is no perfect market. There is no perfect system. That's why it exists 28 00:07:34.020 --> 00:08:03.020 Yamina Saheb: and based on these assessments. The consequence of that is to improve the financial regulations, to be able to mitigate the early risk and to avoid these risks. Another good example that I like is the one related to income inequalities. Income inequality is based on its power dynamic, actually. And this is something we understand very well in physics. 29 00:08:03.020 --> 00:08:27.950 Yamina Saheb: And when you understand this in physics. When you apply physics to income inequality, then you end up with the proposing economic policies that are based on progressive taxation of wealth, to eliminate extreme inequality and to eliminate poverty. We don't need to today. What we have is to try to mitigate, which is different 30 00:08:27.950 --> 00:08:39.850 Yamina Saheb: from eliminating what we should be doing. What physics allows us to do by designing, by considering principles of physics in the design of economic policies 31 00:08:40.330 --> 00:08:45.800 Yamina Saheb: is to eliminate completely extreme inequality and poverty. 32 00:08:46.180 --> 00:09:11.039 Yamina Saheb: Another important example is what is happening today from sustainability perspective. We know that we are going to overshoot, that is, we are likely to overshoot the 1.5 degree target, and most likely the same for the 2 degrees target. We have already overshootten 6 out of the 9 planetary boundaries, and each time we overshoot planetary boundaries. So this means that we 33 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:22.820 Yamina Saheb: we are in a risky zone. Risky zone is a zone where we don't know exactly how the Earth system is going to react. This means that we cannot anticipate our responses to that. 34 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:44.599 Yamina Saheb: However, if we would consider economic entropy, if we would consider the second principle of thermodynamics, then we would avoid overshooting the planetary boundaries. If I give you an example about climate change issues. So today, the implementation or the pseudo implementation of the Paris agreement 35 00:09:44.600 --> 00:10:07.169 Yamina Saheb: is about setting carbon or climate neutrality targets without considering the limitation, the physical limitation of the planet. So our target, for example, the European target is for 2050. It does not take into account the fact that the remaining carbon budget does not allow us 36 00:10:07.170 --> 00:10:17.060 Yamina Saheb: to plan for 2,050 carbon neutrality targets. When you consider that the remaining carbon budget 37 00:10:17.060 --> 00:10:26.759 Yamina Saheb: is what it is, it is a constraint. The starting point is the physical constraint. It's like, if you are sick. So you have physical constraints. You cannot stand up. Go to work. 38 00:10:26.760 --> 00:10:49.930 Yamina Saheb: If you consider this as a starting point, and then you go to? What does that mean for us to take into account this physical constraint? Then you end up with 0 carbon for Europe around 2030, which is not the case at all, which is out of the design of policies, climate policies that we have today. 39 00:10:49.930 --> 00:11:11.130 Yamina Saheb: And then from there you can scale up and see how to do that for different sectors, etc. This is the economic entropy actually, in the case of climate change, and it is likely to be the case for other planetary boundaries on which I don't work. I work mainly on the climate change one a little bit on the land, one because it's directly linked to the climate change one 40 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:36.950 Yamina Saheb: this. It's also about equity, because it's an equity vis-a-vis of the future generations. But it's also about north-south equity. And for us taking responsibility. Because a kid born in Paris is a kid born with climate depth because he is just because he's born in Paris. It's like that 41 00:11:36.950 --> 00:12:01.759 Yamina Saheb: compared to a kid born in Dakar, for example. And the fact that today we do not take into account the constraint, the physical constraints that we have in the mainstream economics. We don't take into account this while. If we would have physics-inspired economics, then the starting point would be the constraint. 42 00:12:01.930 --> 00:12:30.930 Yamina Saheb: and in this case I am a little bit extrapolating. I don't have the full evidence yet built for that. So in this case we would be living in a word, of equity and word of equity. In north-south equity is world without wars, and instead of investing in wars, we would invest in how to restore nature to ensure that our kids will. 43 00:12:31.540 --> 00:12:49.890 Yamina Saheb: we'll have a livable planet, or, in other words, is to ensure that we will be ancestors, because now the real question for us is the fact that it is unlikely that our generations will be ancestors. Given the climate and the ecological polycrisis. 44 00:12:50.470 --> 00:12:52.480 Yamina Saheb: Thank you for your attention. 45 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:01.907 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Wow! Thank you so much that absolutely blew me away. That was brilliant. 46 00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:10.949 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: we have quite a few minutes now for some discussion and some questions. So please, if you do I welcome you to raise your hands. 47 00:13:20.730 --> 00:13:24.860 Yamina Saheb: Otherwise it can develop further on sufficiency. I try, to be sure, just to be on time. 48 00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:28.369 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Yeah, yeah, if you if you have more to say, Please do, please do. 49 00:13:28.370 --> 00:13:56.310 Yamina Saheb: Have much, much more actually so. As I mentioned, earlier, sufficiency is not a new concept. However, sufficiency is not in our policies. France is the only Oecd country where sufficiency is mentioned in the energy transition law from 2015. However, we did not. We don't have any decree to implement sufficiency measures, we have the opposite. We have plenty. I identified in the French law plenty of decrease implementation decrees that go against sufficiency. Actually, it goes 50 00:13:56.310 --> 00:14:21.290 Yamina Saheb: in the other direction. Why? Because sufficiency questions the mainstream economics, and it also questions the way we do policies. So if I am French, so if we consider the French case. France is very much top-down democracy. It's not mixed with the bottom up. It's not like Switzerland, for example. So all the decisions, the most important election in France is the Presidential 51 00:14:21.290 --> 00:14:33.339 Yamina Saheb: election, and then all the decisions are top down, while if we would be in a democratic regime, in a sufficiency based approach to design our policies. In this case 52 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:58.170 Yamina Saheb: we will have more citizens. Approach would be more taken into account. So I give you an example from we had climate citizen Assembly in France following. It's an interesting story, because we had 1st a carbon tax for vehicles for individual cars. 53 00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:15.290 Yamina Saheb: This puts at risk of poverty. Those who are the lowest middle class. The first, st second decides, second, 3rd decide, and then. So the reaction was to this law was the yellow vest movement 54 00:15:15.290 --> 00:15:33.649 Yamina Saheb: and an answer. The political answer to the Yellow West Movement in France in 2018 2019, was to have to organize Citizens Assembly and to organize a system where we were able to complain, to write our complaints as citizens. 55 00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:34.850 Yamina Saheb: and 56 00:15:34.950 --> 00:16:04.019 Yamina Saheb: so these complaints have not been taken into account at all. But if we focus on the Citizens Assembly, what happened was that a group of 150 people were selected randomly. They have been meeting several times, and then they made proposals, policy proposals to the Government. Originally, when the French President made a proposal, when he agreed on the Assembly, the climate Assemblies. 57 00:16:04.020 --> 00:16:14.499 Yamina Saheb: it was to take into account what citizens would be proposing. But when he did come up with their proposals, he did not take into account what they proposed. 58 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:42.580 Yamina Saheb: So you see it's not. It's not the citizens engagement. There is nothing in the French system as it is today with the Constitution that we have to take. There is no obligation to take into account citizens proposals, and this is why it is failure. So, as a result of that, we ended in. We are now in a very bad political situation, as you know. 59 00:16:42.580 --> 00:17:07.679 Yamina Saheb: and if we would have had what was interesting in the proposals made by the climate citizen Assembly in France is the fact that they made the proposal, for example, to make energy renovation mandatory today. Energy renovation is voluntary, based in. If you would like to do it. And energy innovation as it is today, we have plenty of public finance 60 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:25.650 Yamina Saheb: that is, mainly those who can benefit from this public finance are starting from the 4 50 side. Because you must pay. You must have a bit of savings to be able to pay for that. So the low income. So it exacerbates the existing inequalities, basically. 61 00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:44.300 Yamina Saheb: And what was interesting each time I have been working on the energy innovation for a while. And each time. I said that the only way to make it happen is to make it mandatory. The reaction has always been. This is a Soviet Union type of policies. 62 00:17:44.310 --> 00:17:49.200 Yamina Saheb: but actually in citizen assembly, they did come up with proposal to make it mandatory. 63 00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:53.950 Yamina Saheb: because when you sit as a well-informed citizen 64 00:17:54.240 --> 00:18:11.939 Yamina Saheb: is a citizen who will work about his or her well-being, not the profit of the industry. And while the policies today in the mainstream economics are based on the information provided by the industry and the only objective. The main objective is growth and competition. 65 00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:31.349 Yamina Saheb: while sufficiency is about the opposite. It's about the starting point for sufficiency is the well-being for all its equity within planetary boundaries. And while mainstream economics does not take into account at all physics, the Earth system limitations. 66 00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:38.809 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Brilliant. Yes, thank you. Thank you for expanding on that. 67 00:18:39.314 --> 00:18:46.670 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Once again we have a few more minutes for questions or comments. If people have you know opinions or 68 00:18:47.189 --> 00:18:53.839 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: I see that there's a note in the in the comments. I don't know if you can see it, Yamina, that says, Thank you for this very powerful presentation. 69 00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:55.990 Yamina Saheb: Sure. 70 00:18:58.930 --> 00:19:00.230 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Anyone in the audience. 71 00:19:05.250 --> 00:19:26.739 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Okay, please don't be shy. So what I will say is, I think that this is a really important thing to take into account and think about. As we also put this structure into, or try to put this structure into the way we work, too. So it'd be interesting how we can talk about sufficiency within the world of high energy physics. I see a hand up, Jan. 72 00:19:30.310 --> 00:19:36.264 Yann Coadou: Yes, and thank you, Amina, for this. Inspiring talk. 73 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:49.460 Yann Coadou: you have given examples of things that have happened, for instance, in France, and I've heard of other countries trying things, and then being fully ignored as usual by the higher powers. 74 00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:55.170 Yann Coadou: And do you have a proposal of how we could 75 00:19:56.180 --> 00:20:01.470 Yann Coadou: go ahead and actually make our governments do the right thing. 76 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:07.619 Yann Coadou: because apparently, even when we try and propose good things we fail to 77 00:20:08.090 --> 00:20:09.709 Yann Coadou: to make them deliver on it. 78 00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:21.510 Yamina Saheb: So that's a very good question. What we are working on now. So we did set up with colleagues the word sufficiency lab 79 00:20:21.650 --> 00:20:29.280 Yamina Saheb: to see how to embed with the objective to embed sufficiency policies in the EU policy framework 80 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:50.679 Yamina Saheb: and our major conclusion today we will have a report that we are launching in June sufficiency Gap report is that to have sufficiency happening in France or Germany, or whatsoever in the EU country, we must have sufficiency in EU policies in EU law, and this means that we need to modify the EU treaty. 81 00:20:51.760 --> 00:21:01.399 Yamina Saheb: So we are locked in, because, without modification of the EU treaty, it's not going to be, it will be a joke. Give you an example. What people do not know 82 00:21:01.620 --> 00:21:18.680 Yamina Saheb: most people do not know is that, for example, the climate law in Europe. The climate law is not in the primary legislation, it's secondary legislation, and because it is secondary legislation. This means that the backlash that we are experiencing now they can change the climate law 83 00:21:18.770 --> 00:21:40.280 Yamina Saheb: if it's not written in the primary, because primary education is like the Constitution, so we must have it in the Constitution, and instead of working to have it in 27 constitutions especially given that we are not at the same level of understanding and discussing sufficiency. France and Germany. France is an exception followed by Germany, and to some extent Switzerland. 84 00:21:40.280 --> 00:22:05.150 Yamina Saheb: That's why the EU framework or the EU law would be the best way to do it, and then what we are doing, what we are aiming for at the sufficiency lab is to have as many ambassadors as possible on sufficiency. So we will provide trainings starting from September on sufficiency to ensure that there is good understanding, because in France it is discussed. But it is misunderstood. 85 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:27.459 Yamina Saheb: In Germany. It's the same story, and then we need to fight for it, because for me, fighting for it is fighting for life in the planet fighting for livable planet for our kids. This is what it means for me. So it's not just doing research for research. It's doing research for policymakers. And this is what I have always done 86 00:22:27.460 --> 00:22:43.910 Yamina Saheb: since. My Phd. Is much more challenging than just doing research for research. For me, it's much more easier to go to a researcher's conference than to go to explain to a policymaker why it's beneficial for him to embed sufficiency. 87 00:22:43.910 --> 00:23:04.390 Yamina Saheb: And the way we explain that so sufficiency was understood in France and Germany as energy sufficiency only, but actually in our report we show sufficiency is not just about energy, and in our report. What we show is that sufficiency is soft power, because today the debate is about soft power in the EU. We must be realistic. 88 00:23:04.390 --> 00:23:19.270 Yamina Saheb: We must, if you'd like to have the ears of policymakers. You must talk their language, otherwise use their words. So if you can connect your work. And this is what we're trying to do, connect what we understand from sufficiency to the priorities of our governments. 89 00:23:19.580 --> 00:23:30.769 Yamina Saheb: We think that we could be successful. However, we need to have as many ambassadors as possible in all, in all forums, universities everywhere. 90 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:39.449 Yamina Saheb: So there is no something magic that we can do just to have it like that. Sorry, and I'm sorry for our kids. 91 00:23:40.870 --> 00:23:42.210 Yamina Saheb: Yes, Christina. 92 00:23:43.060 --> 00:23:43.620 Yann Coadou: Thank you. 93 00:23:44.750 --> 00:23:48.719 Cristina Alexe: If I have time to add a a question related to this one. 94 00:23:49.402 --> 00:23:51.280 Cristina Alexe: So again, on the idea of 95 00:23:51.400 --> 00:24:14.240 Cristina Alexe: practical advice for what we can do to mitigate. You know, climate crisis to get worse. I think it's very important that the lab and the work that you're doing are looking into these things, and how we can inform politicians on doing things. So my question is given that, for example, in France the government is more willing to be influenced by industry needs. 96 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:22.570 Cristina Alexe: Did you and your team look into how we could influence industry into realizing also the economical impact that the climate crisis has 97 00:24:22.570 --> 00:24:29.270 Cristina Alexe: so that policies could be informed, let's say, via the means of the industry requesting these things. 98 00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:42.449 Yamina Saheb: It's exactly what we are trying to do, and the 1st sector that we will tackle I come from the building sector is the housing industry, or the building construction industry in France and in the EU, 99 00:24:42.630 --> 00:25:06.369 Yamina Saheb: because now, as you know, we do have a Commissioner for housing and energy. Now we do have a recognition that we do have a housing crisis. Having a housing crisis does not necessarily mean building. We need to build new square meters. There are plenty of places in Western Europe specifically, where there is no need to build new square meters. We need to find a way. The legal way 100 00:25:06.380 --> 00:25:31.829 Yamina Saheb: to use the existing square meters that are already built either for vacant housing or vacant non-residential buildings. And for this you need political process. And then you need legal process there, and given that now we do have a Commissioner for housing and energy, although at this stage again we come back to the 1st law. We must, I think, reopen the EU treaty 101 00:25:31.830 --> 00:25:46.970 Yamina Saheb: because housing is not shared responsibility between the EU and the Member State. It has been so far based on the treaty. It's only Member States who can act on housing. 102 00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:58.320 Yamina Saheb: and that's why it is. Only the discussion with the industry is taking place mainly at the Member State level. But yes, we will be doing that. 103 00:25:58.470 --> 00:26:05.580 Yamina Saheb: We'll start with the housing sector. Then we'll see based on the resources. If we could expand and we will learn by doing this for housing. 104 00:26:07.430 --> 00:26:08.419 Cristina Alexe: Okay. Thank you. 105 00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:23.029 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Thank you so much for that. And once again, thank you so much for your talk. That was absolutely fantastic. Very eye opening and and shows us what we really need to be working on. 106 00:26:23.270 --> 00:26:24.120 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: So with that, I'd. 107 00:26:24.120 --> 00:26:31.410 Yamina Saheb: Sorry I must leave you now, because I have my son. It's the bath time now. 108 00:26:31.758 --> 00:26:35.941 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Of course. Thank you so much. A round of applause from everyone. 109 00:26:36.480 --> 00:27:04.640 Hannah Wakeling - STFC UKRI: Unfortunately, she cannot see our virtual round of applause, but it's it's still there. It's recorded it officially happened. So with that I would like to welcome everyone to take a let's say a 15. Well, we need to get going at 30. So let's say a 12 min. Break. Please stretch your legs, perhaps go look away from the screen. Don't start looking at your phone for the next 12 min, and maybe look at the sunset or sunrise.