WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.370 Stefania Juks: Is already on, so we must be ready. 2 00:00:05.300 --> 00:00:07.030 Benno List: Yeah. Can you hear me? 3 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:08.450 Stefania Juks: Perfectly. Yes. 4 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:16.320 Benno List: Yeah, great. So welcome, everybody. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity 5 00:00:16.490 --> 00:00:23.280 Benno List: to present our sustainability studies for ilc click. And also the linear collider facility at Cern. 6 00:00:23.340 --> 00:00:47.670 Benno List: Very briefly, I think most of you will know this Ilc is a proposal for a future linear collider in Japan, 20 kilometers long, based on superconducting technology. Click is the compact linear collider proposal for Cern, initially, 11 kilometers long, based on a 2 beam acceleration scheme 7 00:00:48.040 --> 00:01:01.569 Benno List: with normal conducting Coppa cavities. And out of these 2 projects, actually, a new project has a new proposal has emerged recently called the linear Collider facility. That would 8 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:18.659 Benno List: be a facility 30 kilometers long at Cern. It would be based on Ilc technology, at least initially, but it would later on be upgradable with other technologies like c cubed or the click technology. 9 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:25.570 Benno List: ilc and click have been working together for quite some time on sustainability issues. 10 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:45.710 Benno List: And we both think that you know, accelerators have always been at the leading edge of technology in terms of beam, energy, intensity, luminosity. So we always have tried to make the most out of resources. Be that money be that 11 00:01:46.080 --> 00:02:05.980 Benno List: time and get the most out of you know the energy that we need to run these machines. Now, of course, sustainability adds new cost measures, like, for instance, the Co. 2 that we produce in setting up these machines or using rare materials 12 00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:34.340 Benno List: in order to reduce resource consumption. We think it's important to have an overall system design which is compact, which is energy efficient, which is effective to look at subsystems and components and optimize them, and also look at the operation. Use as little energy as possible, but also look at ways, for instance, to use energy in a way that is compatible with regenerative resources. 13 00:02:34.400 --> 00:03:02.850 Benno List: Lifecycle assessment is a very important tool to quantify the impact, and that is the 1st impact, the 1st step to optimization. And therefore I will concentrate on this aspect here in this presentation, and show what we have done in that respect recently. So we have several years ago started our lifecycle assessment efforts with an Lca. Of the civil engineering infrastructure. So the tunnels 14 00:03:03.180 --> 00:03:29.550 Benno List: underground tunnels, shafts, caverns, and later on then also, surface buildings these results have been around for some time. For click, for instance, we evaluated that the 11 kilometer underground tunnels would lead to A. Co. 2 emission of 127 kilotons Co. 2 equivalent, a clystron 15 00:03:29.970 --> 00:03:30.850 Benno List: Ed 16 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:53.920 Benno List: based solution would more than double this, because the tunnel dimensions would increase, and for ilc it's a longer tunnel, but with a different tunneling technology, we evaluated 266 kilotons. This was done together with an external professional consulting company. Arab. 17 00:03:54.360 --> 00:04:08.439 Benno List: This what is important is that the Lca also identifies a reduction potential. And they, the company told us we could use a lower carbon cement which would save like 20% of emissions 18 00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:35.139 Benno List: they could reduce. Possibly the lining thickness. And possibly also, if in future electricity is less carbon intensive, that would also reduce the overall impact. I think we were very happy that in this study we did not only evaluate global warming potential, but we also looked at the full set of recipe 2060 midpoint indicators. 19 00:04:35.230 --> 00:04:53.800 Benno List: which is shown in the lower panel. Now we have progressed and done a new study lifecycle assessment of the whole accelerator. This, of course, is much more demanding in the sense that we have a lot of different components, we have very different and unusual materials. 20 00:04:54.250 --> 00:05:11.939 Benno List: So this is why we did the second, we again work together with Arab. This corresponding study is almost completed, and once it is finalized, you will find it on the link given here. 21 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:37.820 Benno List: So one of the issues that we had to address is that some of the materials, and in particular Nairobi, used for superconducting cavities for those we could not find good life cycle impact data. So we went through the literature. We found a lot of data, and together with the company, we did an assessment also of the impact 22 00:05:38.070 --> 00:05:53.669 Benno List: of this particular material. We found that the greenhouse impact is mostly dominated by the amount of electricity that you need to refine the material. So you are very much dependent on where you do the refining when you do it. 23 00:05:53.670 --> 00:06:08.319 Benno List: And so so we found in the end that this is a very high carbon intensity material. Unfortunately, if you produce it in China today, it would be around 100 kg Co, 2 equivalent per kilogram. 24 00:06:08.851 --> 00:06:15.489 Benno List: These kind of studies are very important. They are very take a lot of time. But they are also 25 00:06:15.900 --> 00:06:26.250 Benno List: very helpful. So one does not need to go back and and, let's say, ask a chat Gpt for data which is much less reliable for obvious reasons. 26 00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:55.690 Benno List: Then we went on, and we made a very detailed study of the cavity production process for the Ilc cavities and also the cryomodule production processes. I cannot go through this for time reasons, but we looked really at the true material consumption as opposed to just adding up the net weight of the cavities. We looked at the amount of scrap that would be produced, and we also looked at least to some extent. 27 00:06:55.760 --> 00:07:07.580 Benno List: only additional material and waste. That you have, for instance, from processes like the treatment of cavities with acids in chemical polishing or electropolishing. 28 00:07:07.810 --> 00:07:11.880 Benno List: And another very important impact factor are the magnets 29 00:07:12.130 --> 00:07:32.710 Benno List: for both accelerators. We have a catalog of the magnet types, the approximate sizes, the number of magnets. We looked in particular on the yokes and the coils. We also looked at the materials again. Either you have soft iron, which is a relatively low 30 00:07:32.750 --> 00:07:52.789 Benno List: carbon intensity material. But we also studied one example, material vacco flux, which is actually half 50% cobalt. We found that this raises the Co. 2 intensity by a factor of 5. We see overall the yolk material. The 31 00:07:52.910 --> 00:08:09.740 Benno List: steel dominates the carbon intensity over the copper, and we see also that using these high field magnets with cobalt, rich materials has a larger impact than otherwise detectors for detectors. 32 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:37.779 Benno List: We made a very coarse analysis. Essentially we looked at the net weight of the tactile materials. What we see is that iron dominates the impact by far, simply because it is such an enormous amount of steel that you need. Ild weighs 13,000 tons sids, almost 7,000 tons, and that is mostly steel, and that dominates over other materials. 33 00:08:38.224 --> 00:08:40.889 Benno List: Used, for instance, for the kilometers. 34 00:08:41.280 --> 00:09:09.150 Benno List: and we also assume that in the future we will avoid usage of problematic coolants like Cfcs, which, as we heard, are a big problem or a big impact factor today at Cern. But this also shows that if you if you do these kind of analyses, and you see that this is a problem. It shows you the way to reduce the impact. So this is the main results which we had for the Ilc 35 00:09:10.010 --> 00:09:24.859 Benno List: you see that overall the the impact is dominated mostly by steel, and the steel is dominated, comes predominantly from the magnet yokes that we have. 36 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:33.180 Benno List: and other important materials are niobium. As I discussed, like 10%, copper and aluminium also play a role. 37 00:09:33.510 --> 00:09:55.119 Benno List: All these raw materials have a high dependency on where they are produced, how they are produced. So the procurement policy is an important issue in the impact that you have for click. We did a very similar study. We studied in particular the 2 beam acceleration module. 38 00:09:55.580 --> 00:10:14.890 Benno List: You see here the breakdown of the different components that we consider again, here we have a material oxygen free copper, which plays a very important role with the Co. 2 intensity of about 10 kg of Co. 2 per kilogram. 39 00:10:15.290 --> 00:10:43.010 Benno List: and then, if we do the overall tally for the whole accelerator. Again we see steel from the magnet still dominates the Co. 2 impact, and the second most important material for click would be copper and also copper, being an energy intensive material with a lot of refinement, also using electricity offers also a number of reduction potentials. 40 00:10:43.677 --> 00:10:58.179 Benno List: Again, Arab did ran. The full lifecycle results for all the recipe. 2016 indicators. You see that here they gave us an analysis which looks at 41 00:10:58.180 --> 00:11:14.859 Benno List: better impact comes from it comes mostly from production, so from the raw material only in certain cases the use and use would be the Co. 2 from electricity mostly is a dominant source. Disposal we try to consider 42 00:11:15.030 --> 00:11:17.830 Benno List: is generally much less. 43 00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:27.540 Benno List: okay, and that. And you can also look at the materials. And you see, copper is important. Steel is important, electricity is important. 44 00:11:27.800 --> 00:11:53.820 Benno List: But of course, when you look at the 16 indicators, you wonder which of them are really important, which are maybe less important. So we try to consider this. There are these famous endpoint categories. That would be 1 point to measure that another way is weighting this by comparing the overall impact that we have with the average impact that humanity or people have. 45 00:11:53.970 --> 00:12:18.670 Benno List: And what and this was done, and what really sticks out is in these recipe indicators is toxicity. Human carcinoorganic toxicity sticks out, but also marine and freshwater ecotoxicity. So we went on made a Hotspot analysis where does this toxicity come from? Again? We see it comes from stainless steel. 46 00:12:18.860 --> 00:12:22.620 Benno List: Second is operation, which is electricity. 47 00:12:22.730 --> 00:12:38.729 Benno List: If you drill down further, you see, the toxicity impact comes actually from the so-called electric art furnace slack, which is, you know, just an byproduct of steel production which then goes into landfill. And that is a problematic thing. 48 00:12:39.050 --> 00:12:59.999 Benno List: So again, this shows you that this kind of analysis shows you a pathway to reduce your impact. It tells you where the problems lie, and then you can attack them. You can discuss with producers, for instance, can you do something about it? Do you have a management policy 49 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:18.249 Benno List: to cope with these kind of things, and that is, I think, the really important thing of these analysis. It it points you to where you can improve things. It's not so much measuring the absolute amount of problematic stuff. It's really seeing where you can improve things. 50 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:39.509 Benno List: We looked at the scope. 2 emissions from the operation, which is electricity. I will not go through the details. But what we did is we have defined different operational phases and operational stata of the accelerators like shutdown downtime data, taking at full power, commissioning. 51 00:13:39.971 --> 00:13:56.809 Benno List: We have a recipe to see how much time that occupies over the course of a year, and what the electricity consumption in relation to the nominal 100%. Consumption at nominal running is from this we can 52 00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:59.250 Benno List: reduce the amount of total energy 53 00:13:59.380 --> 00:14:29.019 Benno List: we consume over the course of the year, and then an important ingredient obviously, are the emission factors. What is the Co. 2 emissions from electricity? We projected that cern in 2050 would have an electricity within the Co. 2 intensity of around 16 grams Co. 2 per kilowatt hour. Japan would be about 5 times more, because they still 54 00:14:30.051 --> 00:14:33.839 Benno List: have a quite different electricity mix. 55 00:14:34.410 --> 00:14:52.480 Benno List: So in the end we assembled and reported the overall results for Ilc and Lcf and click in this reporting format that was introduced by the Ldg group. That, I think was also mentioned today already. 56 00:14:52.730 --> 00:15:00.339 Benno List: So we have these numbers and we can provide them to the Ldg report. So this brings me to my conclusions. 57 00:15:01.177 --> 00:15:13.872 Benno List: We do generally optimize our accelerators, anyway, for our performance, for costs, for schedule. And now we have added a new dimension which is the the sustainability 58 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.830 Benno List: to attack this we look at a life cycle approach. 59 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:41.840 Benno List: We look at the carbon footprint, but also on other impact parameters. And in order to have a sustainability facility, we think, of course, you try to reduce the overall size, you reduce the power consumption. You understand, and select all your materials that you use carefully integrate with the local communities. I did not have time to go through that. 60 00:15:41.840 --> 00:16:02.769 Benno List: and you use low carbon and renewable power, or, if necessary, you do also Co. 2 compensation, and of course use the facility for a long time and understand its life cycle. So that per year you still get away with a reasonable footprint. 61 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:04.450 Benno List: Thank you very much. 62 00:16:07.730 --> 00:16:11.399 Stefania Juks: Thank you so much. It was a very comprehensive talk. 63 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:14.609 Stefania Juks: and we are welcome for questions. 64 00:16:15.180 --> 00:16:18.640 Stefania Juks: Okay, there is already one in the chat, and they might also have one. 65 00:16:19.741 --> 00:16:27.459 Stefania Juks: There is a question from Rocky. Do you have any estimates for how the suggested reduction measures would affect the cost of the infrastructure. 66 00:16:28.530 --> 00:16:31.700 Benno List: Yeah, that's a very good question, M. 67 00:16:32.670 --> 00:16:59.740 Benno List: We have not evaluated this in terms of money, but I think it is very important, because obviously, if you, if you use Co 2 reduced materials, Co, 2, reduced steel or cement, that is bound to cost you something, and I think that is, let's say the next step in the optimization. I mean for once. 68 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:27.260 Benno List: of course, if you do your cost estimates, you should be honest, and you should say either I do my cost estimate based on using normal materials, but then you should also not assume that that you have a very low carbon footprint, or you should really say, Okay, I am prepared to spend, like, let's say, 10% additional project cost in order to improve my Co. 2 footprint for this facility. 69 00:17:27.290 --> 00:17:31.569 Benno List: and and that needs to be taken into account, and that is very important. Yes. 70 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:35.279 Stefania Juks: Thank you so much. 71 00:17:35.620 --> 00:17:37.470 Stefania Juks: Are there any other questions? 72 00:17:40.090 --> 00:18:02.470 Stefania Juks: I'm not seeing any. But since I also have just a small curiosity also related to the previous question. I don't have much knowledge about this, but I think it's also very interesting to see how you can foster responsible sustainable practices at all levels of building a facility. But I was just wondering, like on the side of the of the market. Do you also have like suppliers, and 73 00:18:02.670 --> 00:18:14.480 Stefania Juks: to procure the materials that you are having in mind the ones that are low carbon? Are they supplying all of these materials at reasonable, not necessarily at reasonable prices. But is there the availability for them. 74 00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:34.267 Benno List: Yeah, I think so. I think so. And and I mean, I, this, I think, is is on on several levels. Yeah, I mean, you start with the procurement policy. Where, 1st of all, you ask your suppliers, can you tell me how much? Co 2 your components really need? And 75 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:58.610 Benno List: In a sense you should. You should incentivize them. You should say, okay. If I make a call for tender, then maybe products which do have a defined Co. 2 footprint. Get a bonus compared to products which do not give that information. And then the same goes for Co. 2 reduced things. You should give them a bonus. 76 00:18:58.870 --> 00:19:15.859 Benno List: It's difficult to set a threshold, and you have to weigh this with the price and everything. But but you need to implement measures like this, and I think Cern is is, you know, very advanced in this, and and really steers into that direction 77 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:39.050 Benno List: to to also use the market power of a large laboratory like Cern to bring the industry into a direction where they do these things, I mean for them, for the industry. It also costs money to do lifecycle assessments to do these kind of evaluations, and you you have to incentivize them. And and that is beneficial for for everybody. 78 00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:41.970 Stefania Juks: And create a demand. Exactly. 79 00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:46.389 Stefania Juks: Okay, thank you so much. Then. 80 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:49.780 Stefania Juks: I think we could can move on.